Who do you think produces the best load data? - Page 3

flutedchamber · 12-23-2008, 11:49 PM

I have tried the Lee hand prime and RCBS bench prime units, both of which belonged to other people. I liked the RCBS a bit better than the Lee, but the Lee of course was more portable. However, like Erik I have the Forster bench primer tool as well as the Forster Co-Ax press.

Both tools limit the seating depth of the primer to prevent crushing of the primer pellet. While I have never been so forceful when seating primers that I had to worry about fracturing the pellet in the primer, the both Forster tools, and at least to me, the Co-Ax press gives the best feel when seating primers.

With that being said I would also like to say that I have nothing against the RCBS primer seating in the Rockchucker or the A-4. It's a matter of a little common sense going a long way. My Dillon 1050's I'm not so impressed with.

The reason that I was reluctant to mention Lee books or tools is because usually it turns into a bashing session. As stated, Lee makes some great items...and some that they should rethink.

As far as getting started in reloading...I agree that it is best to consult a manual before and during loading but I would also like to say that it is a good idea to have more than one manual. Perhaps one manual from the bullet manufacturer that you intend to use and one from the powder manufacturer. Or one of the previously mentioned and the Lee manual. Two sources are always good. First..to double check for error in stated powder weights, and second for a variety of loads and powders that you can use.

Perhaps the best thing that you can do even before you start loading is to read the preamble in the loading manuals. It teaches you what to look for and in which order the steps are best done. The Lee manual has a great section on that. I am sure that other people here will agree that there is little to be gained and usually accuracy is lost when you try to wring the last possible foot per second out of your load. Neither the target nor the animal will know if the bullet was going 1800 fps or 1600 fps. Within reason, accuracy counts much more than velocity..within reason. You still need enough velocity to have sufficient energy for a clean kill, but the minimum loads provide that and more.

I have been reloading since my brother bought me an used RCBS Junior press and Lyman manual when I was 12. I'm 53 now and haven't saved a dime reloading. I've just shot much more for much less money. Oh, and enjoyed the hell out of it every step of the way. It's not rocket science or calculus. It's just taking your time and common sense. Enjoy

Dean · 12-24-2008, 01:56 PM

That was an excellent post, which, I will take to heart. And more informative than you know, thank you!

Dean

5knives · 05-19-2009, 09:33 AM

Well Said Mr. flutedchamber, well said indeed!

If the readers will permit, there's a point that needs to be emphasized for those folks new to reloading, and maybe a few that have done some already.

Uniformity is mandatory if you expect uniform results!

Well DUH!

Talk about stating the obvious!

The problem comes in when you define uniformity for yourself.

Over the years I've heard guys gripe about this powder, those primers, that bullet maker or that bogus manual, etc.

One of the first things a guy learns with black powder muzzle loaders is that you can't make your loads identical enough, but the closer you come to perfection the more accurate your shooting is. That applies to reloading smokeless cartridges too!

Let's take a hypothetical look at a manual. Nosler in this case because they publish the load they found most accurate.

Oh good, here's an accurate load for 7-30 Waters, a nifty little variation on the 30-30.

They say umpteen grains of H-414 and their 140 grain spire point is the most accurate, I'll load up a few and see how it goes.

Hmmm, that is a compressed load, and a maximum load at that, I'm not fond of those, so I'll load to umpteen minus two grains. That should do it.

Gander doesn't have any of their spire points so I'll try some 140 grain partitions instead.

The manual used R-P primers, but I prefer CCI so I'll use what I have.

They used Federal cases, but I've got some empties I sized down from R-P 30-30 cases, I'll use those.

My cases are probably not the perfect length, but I'm in a hurry, don't want to mess around, these have only been fired two or three times, they'll be okay.

I'll be using these in a single shot so I don't have to crimp hardly at all. And OAL won't matter because they won't be going through a magazine.

Off to the range!

Dangit!

These loads are okay but nothing special, hardly worth the effort over factory load performance. Don't seem to be up to speed either, get out the chrony, ... yup, 2275 with a lot of variation not the 2425 the load book says.

Hmmm, ... OH!, they tested out of a 24" bbl 94 and I'm shooting a 20" TC Contender that's probably it.

Still wish these guys would publish a really accurate load book!

.......

They did, I just chose not to follow it!

I think everyone gets the point here.

BTW, if you're casting your own bullets, and accuracy is your goal, uniform weight and concentricity is mandatory as is close visual inspection for imperfections, ESPECIALLY in the bullet base. defects in the base will have more affect on accuracy than the same defect in the bullet nose, weird but true!

(There is an explanation for this but this post is too long already.)

Thanks again to flutedchamber for an excellent post!

Regards,

10 Bears · 05-19-2009, 09:50 AM

Fluted Chamber and 5 Knives have covered the "Common Sense" aspect well.
Using common sense has ALLWAYS been a big factor, in "Life and Limb" protection!

View Poll Results: Who do you think provides the best reloading data?
Bullet makers - Speer, Hornady, Barnes, etc.	10	38.46%
Powder makers	12	46.15%
Press and die manufacturers	2	7.69%
Other	2	7.69%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

12-23-2008, 11:49 PM	#31
flutedchamber Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 916	I have tried the Lee hand prime and RCBS bench prime units, both of which belonged to other people. I liked the RCBS a bit better than the Lee, but the Lee of course was more portable. However, like Erik I have the Forster bench primer tool as well as the Forster Co-Ax press. Both tools limit the seating depth of the primer to prevent crushing of the primer pellet. While I have never been so forceful when seating primers that I had to worry about fracturing the pellet in the primer, the both Forster tools, and at least to me, the Co-Ax press gives the best feel when seating primers. With that being said I would also like to say that I have nothing against the RCBS primer seating in the Rockchucker or the A-4. It's a matter of a little common sense going a long way. My Dillon 1050's I'm not so impressed with. The reason that I was reluctant to mention Lee books or tools is because usually it turns into a bashing session. As stated, Lee makes some great items...and some that they should rethink. As far as getting started in reloading...I agree that it is best to consult a manual before and during loading but I would also like to say that it is a good idea to have more than one manual. Perhaps one manual from the bullet manufacturer that you intend to use and one from the powder manufacturer. Or one of the previously mentioned and the Lee manual. Two sources are always good. First..to double check for error in stated powder weights, and second for a variety of loads and powders that you can use. Perhaps the best thing that you can do even before you start loading is to read the preamble in the loading manuals. It teaches you what to look for and in which order the steps are best done. The Lee manual has a great section on that. I am sure that other people here will agree that there is little to be gained and usually accuracy is lost when you try to wring the last possible foot per second out of your load. Neither the target nor the animal will know if the bullet was going 1800 fps or 1600 fps. Within reason, accuracy counts much more than velocity..within reason. You still need enough velocity to have sufficient energy for a clean kill, but the minimum loads provide that and more. I have been reloading since my brother bought me an used RCBS Junior press and Lyman manual when I was 12. I'm 53 now and haven't saved a dime reloading. I've just shot much more for much less money. Oh, and enjoyed the hell out of it every step of the way. It's not rocket science or calculus. It's just taking your time and common sense. Enjoy __________________ "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" -Adolf Hitler,1935

12-24-2008, 01:56 PM	#32
Dean Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Northern NV Posts: 804	That was an excellent post, which, I will take to heart. And more informative than you know, thank you! Dean __________________ "Sticks & stones may break my bones, but hollow points expand on impact."

05-19-2009, 09:33 AM	#33
5knives KaBoom Kontrol Modulator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Colorado, Western Slope Posts: 16,229	Well Said Mr. flutedchamber, well said indeed! If the readers will permit, there's a point that needs to be emphasized for those folks new to reloading, and maybe a few that have done some already. Uniformity is mandatory if you expect uniform results! Well DUH! Talk about stating the obvious! The problem comes in when you define uniformity for yourself. Over the years I've heard guys gripe about this powder, those primers, that bullet maker or that bogus manual, etc. One of the first things a guy learns with black powder muzzle loaders is that you can't make your loads identical enough, but the closer you come to perfection the more accurate your shooting is. That applies to reloading smokeless cartridges too! Let's take a hypothetical look at a manual. Nosler in this case because they publish the load they found most accurate. Oh good, here's an accurate load for 7-30 Waters, a nifty little variation on the 30-30. They say umpteen grains of H-414 and their 140 grain spire point is the most accurate, I'll load up a few and see how it goes. Hmmm, that is a compressed load, and a maximum load at that, I'm not fond of those, so I'll load to umpteen minus two grains. That should do it. Gander doesn't have any of their spire points so I'll try some 140 grain partitions instead. The manual used R-P primers, but I prefer CCI so I'll use what I have. They used Federal cases, but I've got some empties I sized down from R-P 30-30 cases, I'll use those. My cases are probably not the perfect length, but I'm in a hurry, don't want to mess around, these have only been fired two or three times, they'll be okay. I'll be using these in a single shot so I don't have to crimp hardly at all. And OAL won't matter because they won't be going through a magazine. Off to the range! Dangit! These loads are okay but nothing special, hardly worth the effort over factory load performance. Don't seem to be up to speed either, get out the chrony, ... yup, 2275 with a lot of variation not the 2425 the load book says. Hmmm, ... OH!, they tested out of a 24" bbl 94 and I'm shooting a 20" TC Contender that's probably it. Still wish these guys would publish a really accurate load book! ....... They did, I just chose not to follow it! I think everyone gets the point here. BTW, if you're casting your own bullets, and accuracy is your goal, uniform weight and concentricity is mandatory as is close visual inspection for imperfections, ESPECIALLY in the bullet base. defects in the base will have more affect on accuracy than the same defect in the bullet nose, weird but true! (There is an explanation for this but this post is too long already.) Thanks again to flutedchamber for an excellent post! Regards,

05-19-2009, 09:50 AM	#34
10 Bears Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: E-Da-How Posts: 137,846	Fluted Chamber and 5 Knives have covered the "Common Sense" aspect well. Using common sense has ALLWAYS been a big factor, in "Life and Limb" protection!