Whose dumber Nato or Germany?

[baboon]

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/german-media-says-country-has-no-defense-against-russian-ballistic-missiles

[Sanders]

Well, considering Germany is a NATO member, I'd say the US needs to get out of NATO.

[baboon]

I have said that my entire adult life. Same with
US out of the UN,
UN out of the US

[dinkydow]

But...NATO has a new, seven billion dollar headquarters, in Brussels... Made of glass. A kid with a .22 rifle could take it out. But it has valet services, An in-house dry cleaners, a dozen lounges, executive meeting rooms, A state of the art phone system and private accommodations for one hundred senior officers to fuck their Secretary in.

Why? Because tanks are noisy, all muddy and stinky inside and are no place to wear all those fancy dress uniforms in.

[Johnny]

I was stationed in West Germany from 87-90, married a German and it's kind of a second home for me. That said, NATO has become a one-way alliance; an alliance that benefits Europe and not the US. Most NATO countries don't take their own defense seriously and do spider monkey back flips to avoid funding their armies.

At least in Germany, there's a smug confidence that the US should protect them. They think they're too important to lose. They think if trouble happens, all they have to do is "dial international 911" and Uncle Sam with bail them out... for a third time.

The only way I'd consider remaining in NATO is if European countries gave us something in return. Make it worth our while. Otherwise, we're just giving them a free ride. The time for free rides is over. You want our protection? Here's the price.

[dinkydow]

The US to NATO: "Nice countries you have here. It would be a shame if the barbarian hordes fell upon you and... Oh. Sorry. You are already fucked." Fuck NATO. It has outgrown its usefulness.

[Mzungu]

The only way I'd consider remaining in NATO is if European countries gave us something in return.

You mean like the allied NATO soldiers who gave their lives supporting the US in Afghanistan for a couple of decades after 9/11?

While the death numbers might be lower from the UK compared to the US for example, they aren’t much lower if you take into account the allied countries lower population numbers.

[Johnny]

You mean like the allied NATO soldiers who gave their lives supporting the US in Afghanistan for a couple of decades after 9/11?

While the death numbers might be lower from the UK compared to the US for example, they aren’t much lower if you take into account the allied countries lower population numbers.

Not to minimize the sacrifices of some individual NATO troops, I still maintain that NATO is far more beneficial to European countries than to the US. Germany, for example; is well known for maintaining generous social welfare programs, grand public works projects, and lavish worker benefits while skimping on their defense budget. They don't care about defending their own country. Why should we?

[Mzungu]

Not to minimize the sacrifices of some individual NATO troops, I still maintain that NATO is far more beneficial to European countries than to the US. Germany, for example; is well known for maintaining generous social welfare programs, grand public works projects, and lavish worker benefits while skimping on their defense budget. They don't care about defending their own country. Why should we?

Over 1,000 non-US NATO soldiers died in Afghanistan after the US invoked article 5. As the only NATO country to have ever done so. The moment the US did, all their allies jumped straight in without a question. Literally with boots on the ground within a couple of weeks.

Regardless, you’re also mixing one thing with another. Most Europeans overly generous welfare programs should undoubtedly be cut down. As should the other things you mentioned. However, virtually all of their defense budgets have sharply increased the last few years. Even though they should increase even more with Russia behaving as it is, and will continue to do. FWIW, Polands defense budget is higher than the US %-wise, and Finland doubled their budget the last four years. Bear in mind that the US defense budget also factors in not just a focus towards Russia, as the rest of NATO does, but pretty much the rest of the world in addition (China, ME, etc). So it is no wonder the US defense budget needs to be significantly higher %-wise.

The US can of course decide that Isolationism is the best policy from now on, but I suspect that would be detrimental for the US in the long run and would allow China and Russia to generally dominate the world. Without the European NATO countries acting as a protective buffer in the North Atlantic, you can enjoy watching Russian and Chinese subs cruising along the US coastline.

There’s a massive amount of disinformation and propaganda originating from Russian troll factories floating around, especially on “conservative” websites, X and so on, claiming that the US has no need for NATO allies and trying to weaken western nations bond to each other. I think it would be naive to fall for their psyops campaign.

[aviator]

Cost share arrangements for civil budget, military budget and NATO Security Investment Programme
Nation	Cost share "at 32" following the accession of Sweden Valid as from 7 March 2024 until 31 December 2025
Albania	0.0882
Belgium	2.0447
Bulgaria	0.3552
Canada	6.6840
Croatia	0.2910
Czechia	1.0259
Denmark	1.2744
Estonia	0.1213
Finland	0.9057
France	10.1940
Germany	15.8813
Greece	1.0273
Hungary	0.7380
Iceland	0.0624
Italy	8.5324
Latvia	0.1550
Lithuania	0.2493
Luxembourg	0.1645
Montenegro	0.0283
Netherlands	3.3528
North Macedonia	0.0756
Norway	1.7267
Poland	2.9015
Portugal	1.0194
Romania	1.1931
Slovakia	0.5014
Slovenia	0.2212
Spain	5.8211
Sweden	1.9277
Türkiye	4.5927
United Kingdom	10.9626
United States	15.8813
TOTAL NATO	100.0000

But this is my problem with NATO, we in the US pay the most while most European countries, the ones that really need the protection pay very little.

[Retvet]

Switzerland gets a free ride with their playing the "Mr Neutral" card.

[Johnny]

Over 1,000 non-US NATO soldiers died in Afghanistan after the US invoked article 5. As the only NATO country to have ever done so. The moment the US did, all their allies jumped straight in without a question. Literally with boots on the ground within a couple of weeks.

Regardless, you’re also mixing one thing with another. Most Europeans overly generous welfare programs should undoubtedly be cut down. As should the other things you mentioned. However, virtually all of their defense budgets have sharply increased the last few years. Even though they should increase even more with Russia behaving as it is, and will continue to do. FWIW, Polands defense budget is higher than the US %-wise, and Finland doubled their budget the last four years. Bear in mind that the US defense budget also factors in not just a focus towards Russia, as the rest of NATO does, but pretty much the rest of the world in addition (China, ME, etc). So it is no wonder the US defense budget needs to be significantly higher %-wise.

The US can of course decide that Isolationism is the best policy from now on, but I suspect that would be detrimental for the US in the long run and would allow China and Russia to generally dominate the world. Without the European NATO countries acting as a protective buffer in the North Atlantic, you can enjoy watching Russian and Chinese subs cruising along the US coastline.

There’s a massive amount of disinformation and propaganda originating from Russian troll factories floating around, especially on “conservative” websites, X and so on, claiming that the US has no need for NATO allies and trying to weaken western nations bond to each other. I think it would be naive to fall for their psyops campaign.

I understand your points, but I'm an "America First" kinda guy. Europe has been playing the "helpless victim" card for way too long. If they were aggressively contributing to their own defense, I'd be sympathetic to their plight; but they're not. Why should they? They have a sucker (USA) who will protect them for free. This one-sided relationship needs to end.

[Mzungu]

I think everyone agrees that all the European countries need to pay more (which they are now slowly doing), but bear in mind that countries with a total population of 5 million such as Finland obviously don’t have the same financial strength as a country with 350 million. The three Baltic countries combined are just 5 million people. And remember that they are actually individual countries and not just “Europe”. If % share of GDP is the sole focus, look to Canada. They’re way down at the bottom of list and definitely benefit from being right next to the US for protection. When it comes to “aggressively contributing to their own defense”, this is changing quite rapidly due to the war in Ukraine. Quite a few of them are seeing that they need to get their shit together. The bulk of the money spent by European countries is going right into the US economy thru the arms industry since the majority of equipment is produced in the US. Planes, ships, missiles and so on.

[aviator]

I think everyone agrees that all the European countries need to pay more (which they are now slowly doing), but bear in mind that countries with a total population of 5 million such as Finland obviously don’t have the same financial strength as a country with 350 million. The three Baltic countries combined are just 5 million people. And remember that they are actually individual countries and not just “Europe”. If % share of GDP is the sole focus, look to Canada. They’re way down at the bottom of list and definitely benefit from being right next to the US for protection. When it comes to “aggressively contributing to their own defense”, this is changing quite rapidly due to the war in Ukraine. Quite a few of them are seeing that they need to get their shit together. The bulk of the money spent by European countries is going right into the US economy thru the arms industry since the majority of equipment is produced in the US. Planes, ships, missiles and so on.

That's a fact I will not argue with, but then we turn around and give back billions in other programs to the same countries. Everybody looks at America for money, meanwhile Dollar devaluates and we pay more for everything. 63 billion in fiscal 2023.

[Retvet]

America: The western worlds mercenary force. Shit hits the fan somewhere else in the world, who's the most likely to pay for it in blood and treasure? The U S of fucking A, compliments of our elected swine who seem compelled to stick their nose in everything.

Biden's latest offering to the fucking Ukraine is what, about another 2 billion? Eisenhower was right, beware of the military industrial complex. Meanwhile we've allowed some 8 million walking lumps of subhuman afro-greaser-chicom shit to come into this country. We've had our own country invaded and we're supposed to give a shit about a European problem like the Ukraine? Fuck the Slavs, fuck the chinks, and fuck the assholes bordering us. I'm not an isolationist, and have no desire to see fucking China take more global dominance, but it's time for more of the "west" to get off its ass.

What so many fail to acknowledge is we are BROKE. 36 Trillion in debt and counting. Broke, and the fucktards of both parties in Washington DC keep pissing away fiat currency faster than it can be printed.